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<  Mixed Marriage / Religious Extended Family  ~  Mixed in many ways

Compassionist
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:33 am Reply with quote
Philosopher Joined: 25 Dec 2009 Posts: 41 Location: Belfast, Ireland, Europe, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy, This Universe, The Omniverse
I am originally from Bangladesh. I have lived in Scotland since 1993 (age 14). My wife is originally from Northern Ireland. I am an ex-Muslim ex-Christian Humanist while my wife is a practising Christian (Protestant). We have a son who is four years and eight months old. We are a mixed family in more ways than one. My wife brings our son to church with her. He sings hymns and thinks Santa and God and Jesus, etc. are all real. I have explained to him that they are just stories people made up. He told me that I am wrong and his Mum is right. Anyone else in such position?

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I THANK YOU for being YOU. I am most honoured to have SERVED LIFE with YOU. Please LIVE + HELP LIVE, please LIVE + LOVE. – Compassionist, Can With Candle
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Recovering Catholic
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:10 pm Reply with quote
Guru Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 289 Location: Michigan
I am in a mixed marriage, although my husband isn't religious, so that helps. I think that you walk a very fine line when you take the position with your child that his mom is "wrong." It sets him up to defend his mom, and to defend himself. We spend so much time teaching our children to stand up for thier beliefs, and it can be confusing for them to hear that they are wrong, especially when they are being taught they are right by another parent.

In your situation, it's important to encourage free thought and teach your child how to apply reason and logic to every situation. If raised to believe that they are responsible for their own moral code, molded by the application of reason and logic to life situations, they will eventually apply those tools to religion.

Teach your child about the historicity of religious belief. Begin with ancient mythology. Creation myths are actually fascinating subjects. Read about Hercules and compare his story to the Jesus myth. Isn't it interesting how similar all of the stories are? There is no better way to hook a five year old with science than learning about dinosaurs and bugs. Weather is a great lesson for an older whild. Are the angels bowling, or is thunder actually lightning breaking the sound barrier? Is a tornado the wrath of god, or do they develop in some cumulonimbus clouds based on specific conditions? Look online for science experiment ideas. Even four year olds will be hooked with fun experiments.

The object is to raise free thinkers, not athiests. How disappointing would it be if our children grew up to accept atheism simply because we told them so? I would rather my children question me and come to their disbelief on their own, rather than simply accept what I had applied years of study to determine.

Good luck and welcome!

_________________

"religion is an utterly human-created construct, reflective of nothing but our hopes and fears set in the amber of our ignorance." ~~Dale McGowan
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Compassionist
Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:28 am Reply with quote
Philosopher Joined: 25 Dec 2009 Posts: 41 Location: Belfast, Ireland, Europe, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy, This Universe, The Omniverse
Recovering Catholic wrote:
I am in a mixed marriage, although my husband isn't religious, so that helps. I think that you walk a very fine line when you take the position with your child that his mom is "wrong." It sets him up to defend his mom, and to defend himself. We spend so much time teaching our children to stand up for thier beliefs, and it can be confusing for them to hear that they are wrong, especially when they are being taught they are right by another parent.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply and for sharing your experience and insights with me. I have not insisted to him that I am right and he is wrong even though he insisted that he and his mum are right and I am wrong. I let it go instead of polarising it further. Children under seven tend to be very dogmatic and tend to see everything in black and white absolutes and they also tend to be self-centred, self-absorbed, selfish and self-righteous and totally lack insight regarding the problems with being any of these. Of course, some adults can be the same.

Recovering Catholic wrote:

In your situation, it's important to encourage free thought and teach your child how to apply reason and logic to every situation. If raised to believe that they are responsible for their own moral code, molded by the application of reason and logic to life situations, they will eventually apply those tools to religion.

Teach your child about the historicity of religious belief. Begin with ancient mythology. Creation myths are actually fascinating subjects. Read about Hercules and compare his story to the Jesus myth. Isn't it interesting how similar all of the stories are? There is no better way to hook a five year old with science than learning about dinosaurs and bugs. Weather is a great lesson for an older whild. Are the angels bowling, or is thunder actually lightning breaking the sound barrier? Is a tornado the wrath of god, or do they develop in some cumulonimbus clouds based on specific conditions? Look online for science experiment ideas. Even four year olds will be hooked with fun experiments.

The object is to raise free thinkers, not athiests. How disappointing would it be if our children grew up to accept atheism simply because we told them so? I would rather my children question me and come to their disbelief on their own, rather than simply accept what I had applied years of study to determine.

Good luck and welcome!

I agree. I don't want him to simply follow me. I want him to question and examine and make up his own mind using his own reasoning and compassion. Of course, not everyone is equally willing and capable of reasoning and being compassionate. There is great variation in desire and ability. That is why we see so much conflicts. I know religious bigots who won't even consider the possibility that they are mistaken while I consider all the time the possibility that I am mistaken. I am an agnostic atheist as opposed to being a gnostic atheist. Unless one is omniscient, it is impossible to know everything with abosolute certainty. It is possible that the perceptual world is actually Maya (i.e. illusion - according to Hinduism) and the soul undergoes reincarnation according to karma but it is impossible to prove or disprove such a hypothesis because it is not a testable hypothesis. Although there have been children who have claimed to remember their past lives (funnily enough, lots of children confabulates based on their early cultural experiences) e.g. Shanti Devi (you can Google Shanti Devi reincarnation if you want to know the details). While some claim that such detailed cases are proof enough others are skeptical because there is the possibility of collusion due to wishful thinking, cultural bias, social attention and status gain, etc.

I like the suggestions you have made regarding stories and activities. I have already been doing some things along these lines. However, I am on my own. I am in the middle of a tug-of-war between Christianity, Islam and Secularism.

My in-laws are fundamentalist evangelical Christians and believe in demons and exorcism and other Biblical notions such as superiority of men over women and homophobia and the endorsement of slavery, etc. They think the world will end soon and Jesus will return within their lifetime. They have been saying that the seven years I have known them and will probably keep saying it until they die.

When you said that you're in a mixed marriage but your husband isn't religious, what did you mean by 'mixed'? Are you talking about inter-racial marriage like ours? How have you been treated by others in this regard? Although we have had some negative remarks, most people are indifferent. Of course, 'race' is a social construct. Just as cats come in different colours etc. so do people. It doesn't mean people are from different species. Thanks again for your reply.

_________________
I THANK YOU for being YOU. I am most honoured to have SERVED LIFE with YOU. Please LIVE + HELP LIVE, please LIVE + LOVE. – Compassionist, Can With Candle
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nonplus
Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:21 pm Reply with quote
Philosopher Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 32 Location: Austin, TX
Compassionist wrote:
I have not insisted to him that I am right and he is wrong even though he insisted that he and his mum are right and I am wrong. I let it go instead of polarising it further.
Frankly, I wouldn't present to your son his mom's faith as "just stories people made up". It comes across as condescending and puts it into a contest between whether mom (and her family and your son) or dad is wrong. It may be better to empathize with him in agreeing that "many people believe that [Jesus is the son of god, etc.] but other people have other beliefs". And by all means expose him to the alternatives (interesting stories from Islam [I assume that's you parent's faith], Hinduism, Greek Mythologies, etc.) You may even want to focus on the morals of the praiseworthy Bible stories (lots of positive philosophy in the New Testament) since you in-law's Christianity seems to be of the brimstone-and-hell kind.

With this approach, dad clearly is NOT wrong (since there are people that have other beliefs). And by exposing him to a large variety of cultures/beliefs, it will remove the uniqueness of the maternal family's Christianity.
Compassionist wrote:
Children under seven tend to be very dogmatic and tend to see everything in black and white absolutes and they also tend to be self-centred, self-absorbed, selfish and self-righteous and totally lack insight regarding the problems with being any of these.
That's why they are so much fun. I love my 5yo and her convictions. Smile

Remember, that you too grew up in an religious environment and managed to mature out of it. Your son will likely reach that point as well - just don't expect it to necessarily happen at his current age.
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Compassionist
Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:39 am Reply with quote
Philosopher Joined: 25 Dec 2009 Posts: 41 Location: Belfast, Ireland, Europe, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy, This Universe, The Omniverse
nonplus wrote:
Compassionist wrote:
I have not insisted to him that I am right and he is wrong even though he insisted that he and his mum are right and I am wrong. I let it go instead of polarising it further.
Frankly, I wouldn't present to your son his mom's faith as "just stories people made up". It comes across as condescending and puts it into a contest between whether mom (and her family and your son) or dad is wrong. It may be better to empathize with him in agreeing that "many people believe that [Jesus is the son of god, etc.] but other people have other beliefs". And by all means expose him to the alternatives (interesting stories from Islam [I assume that's you parent's faith], Hinduism, Greek Mythologies, etc.) You may even want to focus on the morals of the praiseworthy Bible stories (lots of positive philosophy in the New Testament) since you in-law's Christianity seems to be of the brimstone-and-hell kind.

With this approach, dad clearly is NOT wrong (since there are people that have other beliefs). And by exposing him to a large variety of cultures/beliefs, it will remove the uniqueness of the maternal family's Christianity.

Many thanks for your insightful and wise comments. I see that I was wrong to phrase things that way. I was wondering if you could answer a question. Is it just a matter of belief regarding the existence, the virgin birth, the miracles, the crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus? Scholars seem to be divided about the existence of a travelling teacher called Jesus in that place and time. Some claim that Jesus is a completely mythical construct based on Mithra and other older mythical constructs. While others claim that there was a Jewish teacher called Jesus who was later deified and mythologised by others. Which of these conflicting claims is true? Does it matter which of these claims is true? After all, even if there was a Jewish Teacher called Jesus who was later deified and mythologised it doesn't make the central claim of Christianity which is salvation is possible and only possible through faith in Jesus, the alleged Son of God. The Bible itself is self-contradictory and inaccurate. The same applies to the Quran. Given the existence of suffering, I think that God is either imaginary or evil. I am an Agnostic Atheist. It is impossible to be a Gnostic Atheist without being omniscient. What do you think?

nonplus wrote:
Compassionist wrote:
Children under seven tend to be very dogmatic and tend to see everything in black and white absolutes and they also tend to be self-centred, self-absorbed, selfish and self-righteous and totally lack insight regarding the problems with being any of these.
That's why they are so much fun. I love my 5yo and her convictions. Smile

Remember, that you too grew up in an religious environment and managed to mature out of it. Your son will likely reach that point as well - just don't expect it to necessarily happen at his current age.

Thank you for reminding me of that. You see, losing my religion was the most traumatic experience ever and I went through it twice! Although leaving Islam was harder than leaving Christianity. I don't want our son to suffer the traumatic disorientation I went through. Of course, he would have my example to guide him. Even if I got killed before we could examine, explore and discuss these issues he would still have at least some knowledge of the journey I took out of Islam and into Christianity and beyond. Do you have only one child? Do you plan to have more? We have only one child and have no current plans to have another. Thanks again for your wise reply.

_________________
I THANK YOU for being YOU. I am most honoured to have SERVED LIFE with YOU. Please LIVE + HELP LIVE, please LIVE + LOVE. – Compassionist, Can With Candle
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nonplus
Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:47 pm Reply with quote
Philosopher Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 32 Location: Austin, TX
To me, as a non-believer, it doesn't really matter whether Jesus was a mythologized real person or whether he never existed at all (my unscientific assumption is that he did exist). It's about as important to me as whether today's Santa Claus is derived from St. Nicholas of Myra or from the Anglo-Saxon god Woden (my unscientific assumption is that it's a synthesis of those two and other traditions).

But with respect to my 5yo, I treat both of them kind of the same. For her, they both "exist" and she can see their effects in the world (going to church with grandma, leaving cookies at the fireplace on Xmas eve). I don't go out of my way to clarify that they are both inventions. I expect that she'll get there eventually (presumably sooner with Santa).

As far as leaving your faith being traumatic - I can somewhat relate. But I would think your child is growing up in a different environment than you were which should make it easier. I don't know much about Bangladesh of your childhood, but I would imagine it was quite homogeneous as far as religion is concerned (Islam being the state religion). I'm guessing that your child is growing up in a much more pluralistic environment in Scotland (at a minimum, he's related to Christians, Muslims and an agnostic humanist) and you can help by widening his horizons without pitting yourself against his mom's beliefs.

I know that my daughter is exposed to much more religious diversity than I ever was as a child (I really had to wait for college for that, though by that time I was well on my way into questioning the faith I was raised in). We read a lot together, and I go out of my way to get her books from library with stories from other cultures and religions and with non-traditional families (that's my humanism at play).

FWIW, we've got two girls (1yo and 5yo) and they have Catholic grandparents on both sides of the family (my wife is more of a cultural Catholic), though none of them are very hard-core or into dictating their beliefs. I had some interesting conversations with my wife's cousins (in their 20s) over Christmas and learned that both had abandoned their religion (one a complete atheist and the other probably a Jeffersonian deist or agnostic).

So yeah, it happens more than you may think and it is easier for the next generations. But I wouldn't really stress about it at his early age.
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Recovering Catholic
Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:51 pm Reply with quote
Guru Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 289 Location: Michigan
My husband and I are both American, although I am Irish-born and was adopted by an ethnically Italian family, so I also grew up looking very different than the rest of my family. Try being the pasty-white, red-headed freckled kid in a family of dark-haired, olive complected siblings. My husband and I consider ourselves "mixed" philosophically and religiously (although I consider them to be one and the same.) He's a non-practicing catholic (more to do with his Italian heritage, although he does believe in a personal god) but American catholics are much more liberal than other christian religions. Catholics have a high rate of "conversions." It helps that catholics don't read the Bible, and are taught that Biblical stories are moral lessons, not necessarily historical fact. Also, the catholic church accepts evolution.

My children have gone through various stages of belief, depending on who their friends are, what they see out in the community, and how many religious events we attended for the family throughout the previous months. When they were 7, they all wanted to make a first communion so they could have a big party. Most kids will reflect the personality/preferences of their closest friends at one point or another, so don't worry about those influences. They come and go, but you will be a constant in your child's life.

_________________

"religion is an utterly human-created construct, reflective of nothing but our hopes and fears set in the amber of our ignorance." ~~Dale McGowan
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Compassionist
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:06 am Reply with quote
Philosopher Joined: 25 Dec 2009 Posts: 41 Location: Belfast, Ireland, Europe, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy, This Universe, The Omniverse
nonplus wrote:
To me, as a non-believer, it doesn't really matter whether Jesus was a mythologized real person or whether he never existed at all (my unscientific assumption is that he did exist). It's about as important to me as whether today's Santa Claus is derived from St. Nicholas of Myra or from the Anglo-Saxon god Woden (my unscientific assumption is that it's a synthesis of those two and other traditions).

But with respect to my 5yo, I treat both of them kind of the same. For her, they both "exist" and she can see their effects in the world (going to church with grandma, leaving cookies at the fireplace on Xmas eve). I don't go out of my way to clarify that they are both inventions. I expect that she'll get there eventually (presumably sooner with Santa).

Thank you for explaining. It is interesting and helpful to hear your thoughts.

nonplus wrote:

As far as leaving your faith being traumatic - I can somewhat relate. But I would think your child is growing up in a different environment than you were which should make it easier. I don't know much about Bangladesh of your childhood, but I would imagine it was quite homogeneous as far as religion is concerned (Islam being the state religion). I'm guessing that your child is growing up in a much more pluralistic environment in Scotland (at a minimum, he's related to Christians, Muslims and an agnostic humanist) and you can help by widening his horizons without pitting yourself against his mom's beliefs.

I know that my daughter is exposed to much more religious diversity than I ever was as a child (I really had to wait for college for that, though by that time I was well on my way into questioning the faith I was raised in). We read a lot together, and I go out of my way to get her books from library with stories from other cultures and religions and with non-traditional families (that's my humanism at play).

FWIW, we've got two girls (1yo and 5yo) and they have Catholic grandparents on both sides of the family (my wife is more of a cultural Catholic), though none of them are very hard-core or into dictating their beliefs. I had some interesting conversations with my wife's cousins (in their 20s) over Christmas and learned that both had abandoned their religion (one a complete atheist and the other probably a Jeffersonian deist or agnostic).

So yeah, it happens more than you may think and it is easier for the next generations. But I wouldn't really stress about it at his early age.

Yes, I was immersed in Islam and it was most disconcerting to outgrow those convictions. Yes, you are right in that our son is growing up in a much more pluralistic setting. Although my in-laws are fundamentalist evangelical Christians. They believe in demons and exorcisms. My wife, son and I have already been exorcised. In fact, my wife was exorcised even before we knew each other. She is from Northern Ireland, you see.

_________________
I THANK YOU for being YOU. I am most honoured to have SERVED LIFE with YOU. Please LIVE + HELP LIVE, please LIVE + LOVE. – Compassionist, Can With Candle
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Compassionist
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:09 am Reply with quote
Philosopher Joined: 25 Dec 2009 Posts: 41 Location: Belfast, Ireland, Europe, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy, This Universe, The Omniverse
Recovering Catholic wrote:
My husband and I are both American, although I am Irish-born and was adopted by an ethnically Italian family, so I also grew up looking very different than the rest of my family. Try being the pasty-white, red-headed freckled kid in a family of dark-haired, olive complected siblings. My husband and I consider ourselves "mixed" philosophically and religiously (although I consider them to be one and the same.) He's a non-practicing catholic (more to do with his Italian heritage, although he does believe in a personal god) but American catholics are much more liberal than other christian religions. Catholics have a high rate of "conversions." It helps that catholics don't read the Bible, and are taught that Biblical stories are moral lessons, not necessarily historical fact. Also, the catholic church accepts evolution.

My children have gone through various stages of belief, depending on who their friends are, what they see out in the community, and how many religious events we attended for the family throughout the previous months. When they were 7, they all wanted to make a first communion so they could have a big party. Most kids will reflect the personality/preferences of their closest friends at one point or another, so don't worry about those influences. They come and go, but you will be a constant in your child's life.


I was actually surprised when the pope announced that he thought evolution was compatible with Christianity. It's interesting how children go through phases and how their identity and views and values are shaped by the cultural context they grow up in.

_________________
I THANK YOU for being YOU. I am most honoured to have SERVED LIFE with YOU. Please LIVE + HELP LIVE, please LIVE + LOVE. – Compassionist, Can With Candle
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nonplus
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:12 am Reply with quote
Philosopher Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 32 Location: Austin, TX
Compassionist wrote:
Although my in-laws are fundamentalist evangelical Christians. They believe in demons and exorcisms. My wife, son and I have already been exorcised. In fact, my wife was exorcised even before we knew each other. She is from Northern Ireland, you see.
To be honest, I have no personal experience with this type of Christianity, so maybe you do need to be more proactive with your son. To compare, none of our religious relatives talk to our children of demons or burning in hell and I would take a large issue with that if they did.

Could you elaborate about what the religious implications are of your wife being "from Northern Ireland"? I always thought that the protestantism in Northern Ireland was of the Anglican or Calvinist kind and their biggest beef was with Catholicism. And I suspected that the protestant/catholic clashes in Norther Ireland were more of a historical/political rather than theological nature. This doesn't sound like what your wife's family comes from (here faith sounds like something I'd expect in some parts of the southern US).

FWIW, when you read about problems in Northern Ireland (here in the US) they just say "protestants" without elaborating.
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Compassionist
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:16 am Reply with quote
Philosopher Joined: 25 Dec 2009 Posts: 41 Location: Belfast, Ireland, Europe, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy, This Universe, The Omniverse
nonplus wrote:
Compassionist wrote:
Although my in-laws are fundamentalist evangelical Christians. They believe in demons and exorcisms. My wife, son and I have already been exorcised. In fact, my wife was exorcised even before we knew each other. She is from Northern Ireland, you see.
To be honest, I have no personal experience with this type of Christianity, so maybe you do need to be more proactive with your son. To compare, none of our religious relatives talk to our children of demons or burning in hell and I would take a large issue with that if they did.

Well, different in-laws go to different evangelical churches. For example, my wife's parents go to the Methodist Church and my wife used to go with them while she lived in Northern Ireland. Her siblings go to either Vineyard church or New Life church. They seem to take the Bible literally. My brother-in-law had a near-death-experience when he was four and had a head injury from a fall. He saw Jesus in heaven who was wearing golden shoes! He also saw dead relatives. My wife, her friend and my wife's youger sister met a demon when my wife was 15, she is 29 now.

nonplus wrote:

Could you elaborate about what the religious implications are of your wife being "from Northern Ireland"? I always thought that the protestantism in Northern Ireland was of the Anglican or Calvinist kind and their biggest beef was with Catholicism. And I suspected that the protestant/catholic clashes in Norther Ireland were more of a historical/political rather than theological nature. This doesn't sound like what your wife's family comes from (here faith sounds like something I'd expect in some parts of the southern US).

FWIW, when you read about problems in Northern Ireland (here in the US) they just say "protestants" without elaborating.

The implication is complex. The people in Northern Ireland are much more religious than in England, Wales or Scotland. Yes, the conflict is due to historical and political issues which still take the shape of Orange Marches through Catholic areas. The Catholics tend to be of Irish origin while the Protestants tend to be of British origin although there are some overlaps. My wife still goes to church in Aberdeen with our son. She goes to either a Vineyard Chruch or a New Life Church (it is nearer) depending on the weather, etc. I have no problems with respecting religious diversity but I have problems with being brainwashed and terrorised (as I was) about hell and exclusive path to salvation.

_________________
I THANK YOU for being YOU. I am most honoured to have SERVED LIFE with YOU. Please LIVE + HELP LIVE, please LIVE + LOVE. – Compassionist, Can With Candle
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