© Glendon Mellow, The Flying Trilobite

Progress on corporal punishment?

cpThe possibility of a comprehensive ban on corporal punishment in U.S. schools has the issue back in the spotlight where it belongs.

I wrote about corporal punishment quite a bit in 2007 and 2008, noting among other things that I once spanked my kids. Though seldom and long ago, I’m still aghast and ashamed in the face of the evidence against it — evidence that made me stop on a dime.

A quick rehash of those thoughts before we look at the new developments:

Every time a parent raises a hand to a child, that parent is saying You cannot be reasoned with. In the process, the child learns that force is an acceptable substitute for reason, and that Mom and Dad have more confidence in the former than in the latter.

A second failure is equally damning. Spanking doesn’t work. In fact, it makes things worse. A meta-analysis of 88 corporal punishment studies compiled by Elizabeth Gershoff at Columbia found that ten negative outcomes are strongly correlated with spanking, including a damaged parent-child relationship, increased antisocial and aggressive behaviors, and the increased likelihood that the spanked child will physically abuse her/his own children. The study revealed just one positive correlation: immediate compliance. That’s all. So if you need your kids to behave in the moment but don’t care much about the rest of the moments in their lives–hey, don’t spare the rod!

(From “Reason vs. the Rod,” Humanist Parenting column, Oct 17, 2007)

I later addressed the well-meaning but false claim that the Bible’s reference to using “the rod” is about guidance, not beatings, and linked to a very nice piece by a Christian parent who decided not to spank her children and gave the reasons why.

Still, influential Christian parenting author James Dobson is one of several voices on the religious right continuing to applaud the practice. In his book The New Dare to Discipline, Dobson writes that “Spanking should be of sufficient magnitude to cause genuine tears” (p. 35). He recommends painful squeezing of the trapezius muscle on the neck to obtain “instant obedience” (36) and using paddles to hit children as young as 18 months old. He advises parents to hit a toddler whenever he “hits his friends” (66), and if a child cries more than a few minutes after being spanked, Dobson says, hit him again (70). “When a youngster tries this kind of stiff-necked rebellion,” he adds, “you had better take it out of him, and pain is a marvelous purifier” (6).

His advice frequently lapses into sneering contempt for the child. “You have drawn a line in the dirt, and the child has deliberately flopped his bony little toe across it,” he says (p. 21). “Who is going to win? Who has the most courage? Who is in charge here http://levitrastore.net/? If you do not conclusively answer these questions for your strong-willed children, they will precipitate other battles designed to ask them again and again.”

Carefully avoiding reference to actual research, Dobson prefers to blame the media for the growing consensus against corporal punishment. “The American media has worked to convince the public that all spanking is tantamount to child abuse, and therefore, should be outlawed. If that occurs, it will be a sad day for families . . . and especially for children!”

We now return to the sane(r) world, currently in progress.

In Spring 2008, I was asked to draft a resolution on corporal punishment for the International Humanist and Ethical Union (IHEU). On June 8, 2008, the resolution was passed unanimously by the General Assembly of the World Humanist Congress in Washington DC. Humanism now has a formal consensus position on this important issue, and I am honored to have been a part of that.

This year, on the heels of new research suggesting that regular spanking has a measurable negative affect on IQ, Congress is due to consider the Ending Corporal Punishment in Schools Act this year. The proposal would “prohibit the Secretary of Education from providing education funding to any educational agency or institution that allows school personnel to inflict corporal punishment upon a student as a form of punishment or to modify undesirable behavior.”

mapThirty states currently ban corporal punishment in public schools. Only two of those ban the practice in private schools. Over 220,000 kids were subject to violent punishment in U.S. schools during the 2006-07 school year, with three states managing to do more than half of the total damage: Texas (49,100), Mississippi (38,100), and Alabama (33,700).

The federal act would ban the practice in all public and private schools that receive federal funds of any kind, which is virtually all.

The big news is the inclusion of religious schools in the ban. But despite recent warnings of pushback from that direction, there’s been very little. Though the practice was common just a generation ago, many religious schools have voluntarily joined public schools in abandoning corporal punishment abandoned hitting as a punishment. “Whether you believe it’s right or wrong, it’s just too big of a liability or legal issue,” said Tom Cathey, a legislative analyst for the Association of Christian Schools International, in a recent RNS article.

So we can and should oppose the undue influence of Dobson et al in the debate. At the same time, we should notice the quiet progress of the mainstream, both religious and secular, toward the obvious. It’s how most social progress happens.

[Hat tip to Secular Coalition for America for great work on this issue!]

-My Nov 2007 interview with Elizabeth Gershoff
-Learn about the Ending Corporal Punishment in Schools Act, contact your representative
-Resources from Center for Effective Discipline (incl. alternatives to corp. punishment in schools)
-Dobson’s views fascinatingly juxtaposed with those of actual experts in the field

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This was written on Wednesday, 04. August 2010 at 12:09 and was filed under action, belief and believers, critical thinking, morality, nonbelief and nonbelievers, Parenting. You can keep up with the comments to this article by using the RSS-Feed.

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  1. “Every time a parent raises a hand to a child, that parent is saying You cannot be reasoned with. ”

    Dale, I love your blog and your books and FBB and most everything you do, but I will have to disagree with your stance on corporal punishment. A child’s reasoning skills are a work in progress, and there are times where you cannot reason with them and a patient approach is not practical. So the quote above is exactly right, yet I see no problem with it. It is naive to think that a child can be reasoned with. As the child matures and can be reasoned with, then the rod can be retired. But for a stubborn and unreasoning child in the midst of a tantrum, after attempts at reasoning and distractions have failed, then a little sting to the back of the legs worked well for us to get their attention and let them know that we expected immediate changes in their behavior. And contrary to your referenced study, our kids are frequently praised for their good behavior. They are caring, intelligent, inquisitive, thoughtful, skeptical, courteous, etc.

    We never used anything but our hand – a safeguard to ensure safety. We always tried other things first – reasoning, distractions, taking away of privileges, etc. But when those did not work, a mild swat did. And our kids are growing up to be caring humanists, not violent. They are teens and preteens now, and I haven’t spanked in years – because they are more able to be reasoned with, and so it is no longer necessary or appropriate.

    So you’ll have to pardon me if I bristle and get a bit angry when I’m told by others that my parenting style is wrong, amoral, and damaging to my kids. We are not strict disciplinarians who reached for the rod too soon, but nor are we softies who let the kids run the show. I think we found a happy medium. I encourage everyone to find the parenting style that works for them and I will try not to judge them (within reason). I expect the same.

    Comment: ungullible – 04. August 2010 @ 3:19 pm

  2. @ungullible: It’s fine for us to disagree, and I’m glad you chimed in. Your last two sentences worry me, though, since it seems to imply that I should keep my opinions to myself. I’m glad that others didn’t do that when I was spanking my kids years ago. Like you, I was angry at the suggestion that I was doing something wrong as a parent — that cuts right to the bone. Then I became convinced that I was wrong. If others had “tried not to judge,” I wouldn’t have had a chance to change.

    Can you imagine a wife-beater saying, “I will not judge other husbands for their choices, and I expect the same?” A growing number of child development think raising a hand to a child is in the same category. In any case, “My kids turned out fine” is a weak argument. Can you address the arguments against spanking with something more than anecdote? I tried and couldn’t, so I stopped.

    (As for “It is naive to think that a child can be reasoned with”…I don’t really know what to say. Cheers.)

    Comment: Dale – 04. August 2010 @ 3:38 pm

  3. I’m not suggesting people keep their opinions to themselves – I welcome the discussion. I’m suggesting they hold back on the judgmental tone and the self assuredness that sounds more religious than scientific. Yes, the studies you reference are enlightening, but do they account for the full spectrum of corporal punishment from true abuse to the rather mild “swat”? Do they account for frequency or age of the child? Do the studies differentiate parents who rush to the rod out of laziness versus those that only use it after first exhausting other “more recommended” techniques of behavior modification? I must admit that I am suspicious of an agenda in these studies, and therefore a tendency to paint all of these parenting styles with a rather broad brush.

    Your wife beating example doesn’t hold water for me. One, unlike a young child, an adult is a rational person who can be reasoned with. Two, nobody is in a position of authority or responsibility for their spouse where obedience is expected. Three, abuse is abuse, and that is not what I am trying to justify. There’s a difference between a mild sting to the backside and causing real harm.

    Dale, would you use a static shock collar on a dog? If not, would you accuse those that do of being abusive to their dogs? I make this comparison not to denigrate the child as a mere dog, but as a humanist that values all life. My point is that few of us view this mild static shock as abusive, and I think this is a more accurate comparison to a mild “spank” than “wife-beating”.

    Comment: ungullible – 04. August 2010 @ 4:56 pm

  4. I don’t know what to say to your not knowing what to say to my “naive” comment 🙂 Are you baffled that I could say that? Certainly you aren’t suggesting that every child at every age can be perfectly reasoned with, are you?

    Comment: ungullible – 04. August 2010 @ 5:05 pm

  5. Apparently soime adults can’t be reasoned with either, she said dryly. (Let’s hit them!)

    Comment: JJ Ross – 04. August 2010 @ 5:08 pm

  6. Two thoughts, the first about the larger social harm of authoritarians claiming the right to subjugate any other human, even their own children, by coercion, fear and force: Political power of story in smacking, hitting, punching

    and the second seeking ungullible’s honest justification of such religious practice:: Egypt’s Christian ‘Child Protection’ by Pain

    Comment: JJ Ross – 04. August 2010 @ 5:25 pm

  7. @ungullible, i think it’s time for a walk around the block. Confidence in good research is not “religious.”

    I for one would call a shock collar abusive.

    If anything, a child is less able to defend him or herself, and therefore should be more protected than an adult.

    Certainly you aren’t suggesting that every child at every age can be perfectly reasoned with, are you?

    Dale’s bafflement was from your blanket statement that it is naive to think that a child can be reasoned with, period, without so much as an age qualifier. He didn’t then take the extreme opposite position.

    Kids can be reasoned with to various degrees and with varying effectiveness at a very young age. Before that age, there are more effective ways to communicate our displeasure than whacking them.

    Comment: rachel61 – 04. August 2010 @ 5:39 pm

  8. @JJ Ross – I read your two links in full and saw nothing that resembled what I am talking about (other than maybe a very broad brush). So I’m unable to respond.

    @rachel61 – Are you confident in the research because it was well done and free of biases, or because it provided confirmation bias to your preconceived notions? I’m a big big fan of the scientific method, but individual studies can be flawed. And if you call a shock collar abusive, then we are destined to have interesting conversations on what constitutes “abuse”, and I think that is a critical definition for this conversation.

    Comment: ungullible – 04. August 2010 @ 6:33 pm

  9. No one has persuaded ungullible and no one will. Hence the need for law.

    Comment: JJ Ross – 04. August 2010 @ 7:38 pm

  10. @JJ Ross – you haven’t really tried. I am most definitely open to conversation and persuasion. I’ve changed my mind on many things before, and hope to do so again soon. But I’ve asked specific questions and made specific points that have not been addressed. I have expressed specific concerns over the studies, and you have lobbed bland URLs in response. Your threat of law sounds ever so similar to the religious who are quick to rely upon legislating their brand of morality upon others when quoting scripture fails them.

    Comment: ungullible – 04. August 2010 @ 7:45 pm

  11. Right on all counts. (Except about my links being “bland” — you mus be living in a different reality from the people being treated like subhumans based on all sorts of harmful superstitions and memes, in all those true stories?)

    You haven’t been persuaded in your life to date, is what I meant to remark upon Your set way of parenting involves hitting children and your set way of responding when challenged to defend that as ethical, is to claim it is YOUR rights being infringed, not theirs. Obviously no one expects you would be persuaded of anything by a couple of blog comments. Opportunity favors the prepared mind and yours — or this online persona’s mind anyway — isn’t.

    Comment: JJ Ross – 04. August 2010 @ 8:00 pm

  12. I am ashamed to say that I have hit my son on occasion, and only once do I recall that I did it as an attention-getter. All of the other times I have struck him out of frustration. And I do believe that my overriding emotion in those instances was frustration, not anger, although anger certainly played a role. I don’t know if it’s worse to strike out emotionally or to use force in a more calculated way, to stop a situation from escalating. I do know that every single time – mercifully for both of us the times have been few and far between – both my son and I have felt horrible due to the experience. He has felt betrayed and violated and I have felt shame and regret. Our relationship definitely has suffered due to flareups of my bad temper.

    One of my primary goals as a parent is to teach my son to live by the Golden Rule. Every time that I have hit him, that goal has suffered a setback. I know that I need to be more vigilant about my own behavior if I expect the same from him.

    Comment: codysmom – 05. August 2010 @ 5:36 am

  13. On reflection, I think ungullible is right about my tone in portions of the post. it is excruciating to hear one’s parenting choices questioned, and worse still if it’s done in an overly harsh way. Without changing the strength of my convictions, I’ve softened some of the language in the post. My apologies for making myself harder to hear than was necessary. I should know better.

    Comment: Dale – 05. August 2010 @ 7:29 am

  14. Dale, as a fellow southerner, I particularly appreciate what humanists are doing on this issue as it relates to school policy. Too many Florida public schools were still dominated by Texas- and Alabama-style good ol’ boy sensibilities in the ’80s, when I was working in school policy and legislation here. It wasn’t just that state law wouldn’t stop them; in fact the law was explicitly protecting them, not their students and not even the rights of parents trying to protect their own children. Individual paddling principals and deans and coaches (to be redundant) were untouchable fiefs who could legally reject social progress and changing public opinion at will, and to override individual parents trying to protect their own children too.

    My observation about the religious schools is that it’s good news indeed to include them in the federal human rights ban of corporal punishment, because down here secular public schools can be hard to distinguish from private religious schools. Schooling (not education but schooling) is a conservative, traditional institution and in the South, still tends to operate under conservative Christian memes and mindsets.

    Comment: JJ Ross – 05. August 2010 @ 8:32 am

  15. Thanks Dale – I do agree that spanking can easily become abusive. I think too many parents use it too frequently as a crutch and a lazy shortcut to more thoughtful, effective, and non-violent punishments. And I agree that schools should not be in the business of corporal punishment, both because it can too easily be abused and also because I think spanking is no longer age-appropriate for a school-aged child who is old enough to be reasoned with. I also concede that denying scientific evidence that spanking is bad could be akin to global warming deniers who ignore evidence that doesn’t fit their views – so I want to be very careful not to do that.

    But at the risk of beating a dead horse, I do still think there is a time and a place for it, albeit rare, and I’m still concerned that these studies do not account for this. I am suspicious that an occasional mild spank to a tantruming toddler is being lumped in with frequent and more severe lashings to older children, even though I suspect the developmental outcomes to be different. I tend to agree with you that the latter is abusive, is indicative of lazy parenting skills, and would likely result in the conclusions indicated by the studies you reference. But I think the former can be effective when done in a controlled manner (not angry or frustrated) and when immediate compliance is needed (rare).

    Dale – I promise to keep an open mind and continually analyze new information on this topic. If someone can show me studies that show spankings, no matter how infrequent or situation-specific, no matter how mild, and no matter the age, are damaging to the child’s development – I promise I will strongly reconsider my stance.

    Comment: ungullible – 05. August 2010 @ 8:34 am

  16. Thanks for your comments codysmom – I too, shamefully, spanked my kids at least a couple of times each when they were younger. And each time was out of anger (I admit it) and frustration in the heat of the moment not because I really thought it was a good thing to do but because I had run out of alternatives. I too regretted doing it. The spanking did not work and only escalated an already bad situation. And apparently, didn’t even hurt judging by the way my strong-willed 2 year old daughter grinned defiantly back at me. Fortunately for me – I can turn to others for help in finding better alternatives, and I did. Dale has been one of my resources – thanks Dale. The strength of your convictions helps those of us who are apt to waver.

    Spanking was not a parenting choice in my case but a bad reaction.
    Each time I have reacted badly – it has been due to my own lack of control. I can’t imagine spanking in cold-blood – in a calculated and thought-out way (shiver). I am thankful that we live in an enlightened age and that I am sufficiently educated to know that I have to learn to control myself better.

    If spanking is condoned as acceptable there is a danger that it will be used excessively by those who lack education and self-control and become abusive. Corporal Punishment in an institutional setting such as a school sends a message to parents that it is OK to handle kids this way. None of us are perfect, and it is easy to forget the intense frustration that can come with the “terrible two” years (for both parent and child). Even with strong advice against corporal punishment the occasional smack is probably inevitable (and I mean a light tap, not a thrashing). It shouldn’t be justified as a parenting choice.

    Comment: AnneW – 05. August 2010 @ 9:49 am

  17. Is the only tone or arument analysis at issue to be Dale’s. then? What about tone and analysis that sound “suspiciously” like concern trolling?

    . . .someone enters a discussion with claims that he or she supports the view of the discussion, but has concerns. In fact, the concern troll is opposed to the view of the discussion, and he or she uses concern trolling to sow doubt and dissent in the community of commenters or posters. Although this practice originated on the Internet, it has since spread to the real world as well, with concern trolls popping up in a variety of places from network television to op-ed columns.

    Of course to borrow ungullible’s tone and reasoning, there is a time and place even for concern trolling which when mild is perhaps not ALWAYS abusive. So “I promise to keep an open mind and continually analyze new information on this topic. If someone can show me studies [that irrefutably prove concern trolling isn’t harmful] I promise I will strongly reconsider my stance.”

    Comment: JJ Ross – 05. August 2010 @ 11:20 am

  18. “Is the only tone or arument analysis at issue to be Dale’s. then? ”

    Wow – feel ignored much? Do you always call people names when they disagree with you? No need to respond actually…. Dale, is there an “ignore” button around here? 🙂

    Comment: ungullible – 05. August 2010 @ 12:29 pm

  19. Maybe that’s more honest at least. But you can do much better, for example by clicking this instead of send next time, to use the open mind you insist you to have, and thereby benefit the collective tone and analysis much more widely:
    The Dreyfuss Initiative: We are bound by a world of ideas

    Great topics under the “What we do” pulldown menu:

    Civics curriculum

    The Public Sphere

    Common Senselessness

    Ignite responsibility and accountability

    Ethics (how to explore the instincts for right-mindedness)

    Comment: JJ Ross – 05. August 2010 @ 1:45 pm

  20. Richard Dreyfuss was addressing the Commonwealth Club of California on my car radio’s NPR this afternoon and apparently the audio is a better resource so far than the new and evolving website, which has great topics but not much under them, yet. Dale, can you relate from recent experience? 😉

    I especially connected with Dreyfuss’ Q and Q at the end, about the life- and priority-changing event of becoming a parent. (He quotes his young daughter upon his telling her he’d throw himself in front of the train for her: “Then you wouldn’t be much use, would you?” lol)

    Apparently at some point he went to Oxford thinking he’d develop a complete civic curriculum but wound up learning that’s not the answer, that what we need is reason and logic exercised in every class every day, plus real places in America for reasoned civic discourse again. AMEN — part of the Initiative is to get 100,000 flat screens in public libraries everywhere so that readers and writers can talk directly and reach people everywhere absent the wearying melodrama of for-profit and for-power corporate talk shows. He said we should be listening to true experts (like Dale!) on ethics and economics and on the Internet because 350 nations will never agree and can’t set aside war.

    Also to experts of thinking and learning (he named Howard Gardner of Harvard, my own choice too) — then we can better solve problems with each other rather than in spite of each other rather than continuing our collective descent into conflict and unreason that helps no one’s children.

    Comment: JJ Ross – 05. August 2010 @ 2:02 pm

  21. Thanks for such a thought provoking article, as always!
    This prompted me to look up policies in my country of Canada and I was surprised to discover that corporal punishment in Canadian schools was only banned nationwide as recently as 2004, although individual provinces may have banned it sooner. My childhood school experiences and memories of discussions with and between my parents, both of whom were teachers, led me to believe that corporal punishment in Canada had ended with my parents’ generation. That the 2004 decision went unnoticed by me may have been because I wasn’t paying attention at the time, but I rather think it just wasn’t controversial anymore and the controversy would have been refusing the ban.

    I remember a particular conversation between my folks when a new school policy restricting teachers to be 100% hands-off, such that teachers were not even to pat a child’s back in praise, was also implemented. According to my parents, such bans were also seen as a way to protect teachers and school administrators from being accused of child abuse and teachers who crossed this line, except in self defence, were (and are) liable to be fired.

    I’m curious as to whether parents whose children are in public schools in the U.S. where corporal punishment is permitted can tell administrators that they do not agree to corporal punishment for their children in school and if this is done, that they would consider it to be an assault on their child. Have any parents done or attempted this? Would they have any legal support or standing for this?

    At any rate, I’m glad that the act is to be considered by Congress. Restricting funding is a rather round-about way of banning institutional corporal punishment, without doing it outright, but whatever works, I guess.

    Comment: Nettie – 05. August 2010 @ 2:10 pm

  22. I’m curious as to whether parents whose children are in public schools in the U.S. where corporal punishment is permitted can tell administrators that they do not agree to corporal punishment for their children . . .Have any parents done or attempted this? Would they have any legal support or standing for this?

    I can speak to Florida and more generally the southern US, where that was indeed part of the conflict not yet resolved and very hard to argue — parents refusing to permit their own child to be struck and principals and/or school districts refusing to recognize that as valid. Legally it’s been a mess. Politically it is the same parents who want to opt out of sex education and certain presidential visits who want universal prayer and paddling for everyone’s kids at school.

    Comment: JJ Ross – 05. August 2010 @ 2:26 pm

  23. […] The Meming of Life » Progress on corporal punishment? Parenting … […]

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  24. I know I’m late to the discussion, but I can see ungullible’s points, and I don’t think he is completely wrong. I think there is a difference between the sort of spanking ungullible is talking about and the kind of spanking that James Dobson is advocating. Dobson’s goal is complete submission of the child. I have read some bits of other books advocating spanking (even in infancy!) because children need to submit to their parents, and by extension, God. If your goal is submission, then yes, corporal punishment works. But it is damaging to the child. Any form of discipline that is intended to teach children ot to question authority is dangerous.

    If your goal is simply to discipline your child on certain occasions when he is not behaving and nothing else works, then I see no problem with a swat or light spanking. It sounds to me like ungullible’s form of discipline is not the same thing as the corporal punishment that is advocated by many Christian parenting books. He is simply using it when necessary. It also sounds like he uses other forms of discipline first, and doesn’t just dole out spankings whenever his children act up.

    I am also not entirely convinced by the research that I’ve read on corporal punishment, because it lumps all children who have ever been spanked together. Some kids have been spanked a few times, and some kids have been consistently spanked because their parents believe that it is the ONLY way to discipline them. These are two different forms of discipline, and I think that we need to draw a distinction between them.

    Comment: lexicakes – 09. August 2010 @ 11:58 pm

  25. @lexicakes – Except Ungullible’s points are not the point, of the humanist resolution, the proposed federal policy nor the problem of institutionalized hitting. It would be to the point to defend current brutal beatings by principals and teachers around the world, in Indian and African schools for example, as an effort to justify the same in American schools particularly in the South.
    But I notice no one ever does that . . . instead the ultraconservative parent’s rights movement invariably jumps in to invoke the reductionist image of a loving parent’s protective pat on a heavily diapered bottom and then to say, these are not the droids you’re looking for, move along, nothing to see . . .

    Comment: JJ Ross – 12. August 2010 @ 10:41 am

  26. Thanks, Dale, for this piece. I’ve got a son who was a wonderful child at two, but now at three, can be a monster. I haven’t spanked or hit him, but I’m surprised at how instinctual it feels to want to hit him. I have to override those primitive reactions and remind myself that I’m not the three year-old, I’m the parent and can control my reactions. I certainly don’t want to teach him that if someone does something you don’t like, you should hit him. This entry is wonderful encouragement to keep corporal punishment out of discipline.

    Comment: rajawa – 20. August 2010 @ 9:30 am

  27. You’re welcome, rajawa. I think we all understand that instinctual feeling. Three was a very tough age for one of my kids as well, and by five she was terrific again. Best of luck in finding the courage and patience to do the right thing for both of you.

    Comment: Dale – 20. August 2010 @ 9:50 am

  28. Assault is assault. If the victim is a child that is normally an aggravating factor in crimes, but here it is suddenly an excuse?

    There are excuses for hitting someone: self-defence; stopping them from endangering or harming themselves or others; and a couple of others, but making someone do what YOU want them to do is categorically NOT one of them.

    Being unable to control a child, a child for goodness sake, without the use of violence suggests that you are not a fit person to be in charge of a child.

    And this may simply be anecdotal, but all those who advocate a gentle smack seem to do it for the immediate effect. For example if you’re at the supermarket and your child is throwing a tantrum you are embarrassed and want to quieten the child down as quickly as possible, or if you’re at home and busy and don’t have the time to teach your child a lesson in a non-violent way then you may seek compliance through violence.

    Comment: keddaw – 07. September 2010 @ 8:42 am

  29. This collection of parent true stories about all aspects of spanking, is revelatory to many readers trying to do better than was done to them [disclaimer: one was written by me, exactly as it happened to my teenager and her friends backstage at a dance show.]

    Comment: JJ Ross – 07. September 2010 @ 11:38 am

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